She Thinks Big, Episode 274
Have you ever sat in a meeting, seen exactly what needed to change, and said nothing because you’d be the only one saying it?
Most of us have. We tell ourselves it’s not the right time, or we don’t want to be that person. But staying quiet costs something. The idea dies, the old way keeps running, and you walk out a little more convinced that pushing back isn’t worth it.
Shelley Zalis has a different way to look at it. The founder of The Female Quotient and a self-proclaimed Chief Troublemaker, she explains why one voice gets labeled trouble while a group gets labeled change, why she challenges the way leaders use the phrase “unconscious bias,” and how women leaders can stop waiting for permission and start building their pack.
About this episode
Shelley built a company that brought market research online, sold it to Ipsos, co-founded #SeeHer, and now leads The Female Quotient. In this conversation, she shares the performance review she refused to sign early in her career, her idea of the power of the pack, the initiative she calls the Flipping Point, and why she wants leaders, not just women, to own closing the gap.
In this episode
What does “power of the pack” mean, and why does it matter for women leaders?
A woman alone has power, but women together have impact. That’s Shelley Zalis’s whole idea in one line. One person pushing back in a meeting gets labeled difficult. When others back the same idea, the room has to take it seriously, and a new norm starts to stick.
Shelley describes bringing women together at CES after attending too many conferences as the only woman in the room. What began as an invitation to a small group grew when those women brought friends. She uses the same approach in business: bring companies together to test an idea so it gains traction instead of depending on one champion.
Is unconscious bias real, according to Shelley Zalis?
Not the way most leaders use the phrase. Shelley’s take: recognizing a bias creates awareness, and awareness creates a choice. Do something about it, or don’t. Choosing not to act is a decision, and it belongs to you.
“Unconscious” can become a comfortable place to hide. If you already know you’re losing your best leaders to caregiving, the next step isn’t more awareness. It’s deciding what you’re going to do about it. Shelley’s challenge is to look for a solution, want it, and make it possible.
Why does Shelley Zalis call herself the Chief Troublemaker?
Shelley recalls refusing to sign a performance review that criticized her for putting clients first and pushing people out of their comfort zone. She says she was demoted for it. Rather than treating those qualities as weaknesses, she gave herself permission to challenge rules that made no sense and adopted the title Chief Troublemaker.
She also shares what happened when a reporter later contacted the manager who wrote that review. Andrea and Shelley connect over their experiences of being called troublemakers, including Andrea’s story about being assigned a seat in meetings so she and a colleague couldn’t easily tag-team their questions.
Why isn’t bringing more women into leadership a “women’s issue”?
Because it’s a growth issue. Shelley connects women’s participation in business with economic opportunity, innovation, and better products. Her argument is that excluding women means overlooking talent, customers, and opportunities.
Shelley wants the conversation moved out of mandates and quotas and into growth, innovation, and scale. She also pushes back on the words we use. Why is there women’s leadership training but no men’s leadership training? Why talk about male allies instead of leadership allies? Her ask is simple: leaders should bring in the best talent, including the lived experience that builds better products.
What’s the difference between a troublemaker and a changemaker?
A troublemaker breaks a pattern alone. A changemaker starts a new pattern, and the difference is usually who’s standing with you. Shelley’s point is that the same idea reads as trouble when one person says it and reads as progress when a group says it together.
She tells the story of visiting Rosie Rios, former Treasurer of the United States, and seeing portraits of women who had held that role. Someone had to appoint a woman first and break the existing pattern. When others follow, what once seemed unusual can become the norm.
What does an unconscious leader look like?
In Shelley’s view, it’s a leader who sees the same evidence of inequality year after year and accepts it. She challenges leaders to recognize that knowing about a problem and choosing not to prioritize it is still a choice.
Shelley recalls reading the World Economic Forum’s gender gap projection while attending a Title IX anniversary celebration at the ESPYS. Instead of accepting a distant timeline as inevitable, she questioned what intentional leadership could change. Her message is a challenge to act, rather than a guarantee about when the gap will close.
Connect with Shelley Zalis
Find Shelley on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn: @shelleyzalis
About Andrea Liebross
Andrea Liebross is a business coach, speaker, and author of the bestselling book She Thinks Big. She works with women who run established businesses, the ones who look successful from the outside but feel stuck in the day-to-day of managing growth. She’s also the host of the She Thinks Big podcast.
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Resources mentioned
Don’t just listen, implement it
Three moves for this week:
Name the pattern. Write down one thing in your business or on your team you’ve been calling “just how we do it.”
Find your pack. Pick two people who’ll back you when you raise it. Talk to them before the meeting, not during.
Make the conscious call. Take one thing you already know needs to change and decide: act on it this month, or consciously let it go.
If you’re tired of being the only one in the room pushing for what’s next, that’s exactly what we do inside the She Thinks Big Collective. Book a conversation with Andrea to explore what kind of support fits where you are right now.
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Andrea Liebross: And you just… well, not just, but a couple months ago, you relaunched, or launched a podcast, right, with a new… Name? Shelley Zalis: Oh, Broadlines, yeah. We… it was our first… we never had a podcast before, so it wasn't a relaunch, it just was a launch. And it's very organic. And it is, you know, we have 8.5 million women across 100 countries and 30 industries, so there's always a different broad lines line, basically, you know, whether it's sports, or whether it's health, or whether it's AI, or whether it's… you know, it's… we talk about whatever's on our minds, and we have amazing speakers. So, yeah, that was just a few months ago. And it's… it's doing really well, so it's… Andrea Liebross: Congratulations. You having fun with it? Is it fun? Shelley Zalis: The tru… the truth is. I… I really don't do anything. I'm not the host. I didn't want to be the host. Andrea Liebross: So you're not really… you don't really have to have any involvement in this? Shelley Zalis: No, I get to listen to them, and I love hearing them. So, like, I love listening as a listener of a podcast. Andrea Liebross: Yeah. I didn't know if you had anything behind the scenes to do with it. I know you're not hosting it, but… Shelley Zalis: Why don't… Andrea Liebross: Under your big umbrella. Shelley Zalis: Yeah, of course, I always have, you know, some, you know, role to play, but I love that I'm not hosting it. You know, that was a real intentional decision. To bring on two amazing women, that were also young and… and great with the microphone, but, we… we are grooming them and watching their growth. And their confidence and their evolution has been really remarkable. So, I love our podcast as a podcast, but I actually more love How it's coming together and forming and evolving and leading a whole new direction of podcasting. Andrea Liebross: I love that. And it's also giving them a great opportunity for them to grow, right? Yeah. Okay, tell me… as I was doing my research, Chief Troublemaker. Shelley Zalis: You know, I'm a self-proclaimed Chief Troublemaker. I decided I might as well give myself permission, sorry, not sorry, permission granted by me to break the rules and make no sense and create new ones. So, Chief Troublemaker was just the perfect name of… you know, I'm gonna break the rules that make no sense, and… And that's all based on lived experience. You know, I… I must have been, like, 25 years old, and I talk about this. My first review, I thought I was perfect. I came in early, I stayed late, I followed all the orders, I… you know, I thought I was doing everything I was supposed to do, and my first review, where I thought I was gonna walk in. To the room with a, you know, get a promotion and a raise. I had a six-page typewritten… we had typewriters at the time, typewritten review, and the first paragraph, I'm smart, I'm talented, I'm kind, I'm, you know, generous, you know, all those things. But then, the rest ripped me to shreds. I take too many clients to lunch. I say yes to the clients, I… I shake shit up, and, you know, I was supposed to be an order taker. And… They wanted me to sign the review. And agree with the review. And my head said, sign, I was 25, I needed the job. But my heart just said, I can't. I don't agree. And the words that came out of my mouth was, I can't sign this because you've just made a big mistake. You're wrong. I said… Clients should come first, and just because this is how the survey looks, if they want to ask other questions, they want to… we need to evolve. And… You know, and he's like, I push people out of their comfort zone, you know, in the company, and… And so I couldn't sign the review, and I got demoted as a result, and… He put someone above me, and he said, well, she's a researcher, and we're a research company. And I always felt that relationships and listening to clients Probably should… is a good thing, but apparently it wasn't. And so, I gave myself Chief Troublemaker. I gave myself permission to create possibility, you know, and the only way to do that in a status quo world is to create things that might not exist. But that's scary, and that's hard, and… And you sometimes get demoted for that, if that's not the way the company was running. And years later. I was interviewed by a pretty well-known magazine, and I thought it was just, like, a quote that they wanted for me, and we talked for quite some time, and I found that it was a 6-page spread. And in there, I talked about this review. And the interviewer said to me, well, how do you think that person feels today about that review. I said, I don't know. Call him. So they called him. He comes on the phone, and the interview is saying, I'm with Shelley Zalis, and she, you know, and she told me about the review. Do you remember that review? And he says, of course I do. And he says, well, do you have any regrets? About that? And he said, no. And so I jump on, I'm like, no! You made me cry in that meeting! You hurt me so badly! Like, I thought I was doing such a good job! He goes. If you had listened to me. You wouldn't be where you are today. Chief Troublemaker. He said, and I'm so proud of you, and I'm so inspired, and he said, thank God! You didn't listen to me. and be in Baker. He said, so I have no regrets. I actually take responsibility for pushing you out of your comfort zone, and you just being the chief troublemaker. Andrea Liebross: Isn't that great insight on his part, right? Yeah. Shelley Zalis: No, it was… and we're great friends. Andrea Liebross: Yes, it was great. I, we have something in common, because I was… I've been called a troublemaker, and, in a work situation a while back, really now one of my dear friends, who we became friends through this work situation, we would sit in meetings, and… Ask questions, and challenge, and… she and I would start to look at each other across the table and give that look where, mmm, this isn't gonna fly, or we should say something, or… So we were kind of tag-teaming, and what they ended up doing is then they started assigning seats in the meetings. So that she and I couldn't make eye contact, and separating us. Shelley Zalis: Yeah. Andrea Liebross: And we were just too much of… we were too… troublemakers. Shelley Zalis: Yeah. But you know, to me, that's a power of the pack moment. Andrea Liebross: Yes. Shelley Zalis: You know, I always say, a woman alone, a leader alone, a company alone has power. Collectively, we have impact. And so when, you know, we have that One troublemaker, then you're a troublemaker. When you have consensus, You're change makers, you know, and so… Like, so think about that. So when I was always alone in the room, you know, I was always the outlier, which puts me in a category of breaking the rules, or… versus in a new category of creating New norms. By starting it. And so when, if I were to say, oh, well, What if we… what if we actually encouraged our clients to bring new things to the table? And then you would sit in the meeting and say, yes. That… that's a great idea! And then someone else would say. Yeah, then possibility becomes possible, you know? People thought, oh, that's impossible, or that hasn't been done before. Well, how would you ever be able to bring something new in if someone doesn't start the new… trend, or create a new pattern, but a pattern can't stick if it doesn't get sticky quickly, and you don't ladder up. So that, to me, is why I coined the phrase power of the pack. A woman alone has power, collectively, we have impact. A leader alone has power, collectively, we have impact. I don't care if you're a man or woman, if you're in a position of power, use it and pull others up. And that's how change happens. And actually… during the Obama administration, Rosie Rios was the former Treasurer of the United States of America. And I go to her office, she, you know, if you look at your bills, they're signed by Rosie Rios. And I go to her office in the Treasury one day, and I see a wall of women. Woman, woman, woman, woman, woman, woman, woman! I'm like, Rosie, Who… The heck are all these women? She said they're all former treasurers of the United States of America. I said, are you kidding? I didn't know that, did you know that? Andrea Liebross: Nope. Shelley Zalis: I said, well, how did that happen? I know you're the treasurer, but I… because, well, one day, one of the Truman, Hoover, I don't know which one. Just put a woman as treasurer. Broke a pattern, started a new one, and from then on, that became the thing. Andrea Liebross: pattern. Shelley Zalis: So… someone Has to either break a pattern. Or, just start a new one. Breaking a pattern, you might be the troublemaker. Creating a new one, you are a changemaker. But when the pack goes. That's how transformation happens. You don't have to wait and watch for 200 years. Andrea Liebross: So true, and it, this trouble that I was in was breaking patterns, right? So this was… I said, what if we did it this way? Well, we've never done it that way before, and it was… it was exactly… Bringing up something, a pattern that needed to change. Shelley Zalis: Damn. Andrea Liebross: it on the head. There you go. What trouble haven't you made yet that you should or want to? Shelley Zalis: Hmm. Well, you know, for me, obviously, trouble is good trouble, and it's transformation. You know, it is just about… because I always say to someone who says, well, it hasn't been done before. Well, then how do you know it's not going to work if we haven't tried it? So, if you don't try it. You'll never know. And if you do, the worst thing that could happen is it's not gonna work. The best thing that could happen is it does, and it gets sticky. And so I'm working on a new initiative. I was, you know. that I'm pretty excited about, called the Flipping Point, which is tipping point you wait and watch. Flipping point requires intentional action for change. We'll launch the… concept of transformation at the B20, the G20, but the B20's private sector. We're the official arm of the G20. All around economic momentum powered by women. We're the greatest growth, it's a $28 trillion opportunity. We're going to work on two initiatives. The CARE Initiative, so whether it's self-care, childcare, or elderly care, where private sector takes responsibility for creating the transformation. And then the second is procurement. Less than 1% of procurement dollars go to women-owned businesses. That's a 1%, 99.1, I mean, that's not even, like… You know, but if you give women the opportunity and the access to bring their whole selves to the workforce. $28 trillion opportunity, and then supply chain, supply chain, supply chain, procuring more women-owned businesses. that's just putting money in the economy. And so those are two really big initiatives that I'm pretty excited about, and bringing Fortune 500 companies front and center to take accountability responsibility for the transformation forward. Andrea Liebross: That's very exciting. Shelley Zalis: Let's go! Andrea Liebross: So true, right? Let's go, let's go. So, I mean, you were one of the… in the early 2000s, you were one of the first companies to bring market research online, right? And everybody told you it wouldn't work. So… Have you gotten any, this won't work? Have you gotten any pushback on… Shelley Zalis: And I get it all the time, but I'm a four-time movement maker, and so I've been… around the block. When you create a movement, it means you're doing things that haven't been done before. And so, you know, I always say there's… you, you know, you've got to hit three things. The first category of doing things that haven't been done is the innovator. You know, you're creating things, there's no ecosystem, there are all the people that say it's not possible, it's not the right time, you're not the right one, you gotta make the mistakes, you know, and push forward. The second's the copycat. You know, they come in, and they copy everything that you're doing, but they don't really understand what's under the hood. You know, why you made the changes that you made, or the tweaks that you made. And the third is the sweeper. They ride in on that, you know, beautifully shiny white horse, and now there's an ecosystem, now there's money, and they win. And so I always said to myself, I have to be the first, the second, and the third, because I'm not going to be the first to create it, and the last to realize the vision and the dream. And so, I've always… made sure for myself that I am the first, that I'm my copycatter, I copycat myself, and then, you know, we create the third. So, when you're creating something new, you're gonna get the skeptics of why not, not why yet. or what… that it's impossible and not possible. Or, you know, all those things. So I've… I've heard that a million times, but my secret sauce that's not a secret is power of the pack. I have always brought at least 10 companies together at the same time to experiment. And then, you know, potential becomes completely possible if you can create the backbone. So, from standardizing online, ad units, you know, we don't have a 30-second commercial and a 32-second commercial. We have 15s, 30s, 60s. So we created standard ad models, and then brought it to, you know, an organization, a trade organization, that could, you know, take it from there. You know, the first. The second was online. People told me, no one's online. Well, we gotta start somewhere, you know, so I had to build an ecosystem around online, and that's a whole other story of how, you know, I got adoption around that, especially when people said, well, people won't People will lie, they won't tell the truth. online. I said. How many times have you ever looked at a pen… pencil paper survey in the mall? How many erase marks? Because I started in paper-pencil, mall intercept. I said, have you seen the erase marks on rainy, stormy weekends, and they still manage the quota? You would see male turn to female in 18… I said, are you kidding me? I said, why are you putting standards on online that you never put In other formats. Only because it's making you uncomfortable. It's an easier way of not doing it by… going on the defense than the offense. So then online, and then the See Her Movement, where we created standards for representation and reflection in advertising and media, which went, you know, global. And then, you know, the fourth of, you know, the female quotient, creating these spaces for everyone to thrive and giving everyone, access. It's up to you to close the door, but everyone should have the opportunity to have the access to, you know, the opportunities. And so. Been there, done that, used to it. Yeah. Excites and delights me to no end, but I don't do it by myself. I do it always as power of the pack. And… Andrea Liebross: How do you… what's your secret to creating the pack? Shelley Zalis: Trust. You know, you take a moment to, movement, a movement to momentum, and that requires… whoosh, it's a whoosh. You know, when I first went to CES, and I, you know, I just was tired of being an only and lonely at conferences, I invited 5 women and told them to invite their girlfriends, and 24 hours later, 50 women showed up. And that's when I coined the phrase, power of the pack. A woman alone has power, collectively, we have impact. You walk a trade floor. of hundreds of thousands of people, and you have one, one, one, one… there were women there, but everyone was in a one. You show up together. You can't miss us. you know, every guy's head turned, like, where the heck did all you come from? Let's Power the Pack. feeling I got. I knew I was doing it through the consortiums I created, but that was a feeling. That was something that was so… Empowering, not empowering. The power was within me, within you, within you. But when you're all together, you are unstoppable. Power of the pack is unstoppable. And so… you know… it just… it excites into lifespan. When I got invited to the World Economic Forum as… we were the girls' lounge. part of the The Female Quotient, but called the girls' lounge. My invitation was, we want you to come, but you might not feel welcome. That was 11 years ago. My head said, don't go, my heart said, I must. Once again, I invited 50 power women, we had a slumber party at the World Economic Forum. And I said to them, we might not feel welcome, but if we're all together, we're gonna have the best content, we'll have the best… cozy space, the best food, you know, and if no one else wants to come, that's okay. We're showing up, and we're gonna show up as a pack. And so it was less… it wasn't so scary. And then, of course, people poked their head in, and we already were full, because I brought the crowd. Right? So, it wasn't like I had to wait and watch. we just… decided we're going, and we all went together, and that collective… Action created the transformational change that we're experiencing today. Andrea Liebross: Do you think that collective action Reduces the urge to compete with each other and not collaborate. Shelley Zalis: Competition is not welcome in my space. You know, we are so collaborative. I create a big enough space that everyone can come under one roof. There's plenty of people that are creating different women's things, and that's great, but we are about workplace transformation. We're about leadership transformation. And it is powered by adding women. I always, you know, the female quotient, the name came. first came IQ, the intelligence quotient, then came EQ, the emotion quotient, the emotional quotient, now comes FQ, the female quotient. When you add more women to any equation, the equation gets better. And so it wasn't just to say, put women in it, it's that we can show the economic momentum When it's powered by adding women. to the mix. We know when you give women full, workforce participation, it's a $28 trillion opportunity. We know when you buy from women, when you procure from women-owned businesses. You can move the 1% to 5%, to 10%, whatever. That is exponential economic growth. Scale. Andrea Liebross: Totally. Shelley Zalis: innovation. I mean… And not just putting women in because it's a nice-to-have. It is a business imperative. If you want to grow the economy. Andrea Liebross: Okay, so I have… Women WBE, right? You know what that is, obviously. So, with all that's going on in the world, though, there's been a lot of talk that that's not even relevant anymore. And that it doesn't. Shelley Zalis: It's not relevant if we talk about it as DE&I, or as a quota, or as a mandate, but when you talk about growth, innovation, scale. Momentum. Andrea Liebross: Yes, it's a hundred. Shelley Zalis: Money, money, money? It's not a women thing. It's… if you make it a women thing, it's a woman… it's not a women thing. It's… Andrea Liebross: It's not. Shelley Zalis: It's investing in growth, and where the growth opportunity is. When we are not allowing women to have full workforce participation, we're leaving money on the table. Because it's women that are purchased. They have the purchase power. Andrea Liebross: Yeah. Shelley Zalis: And if they're… if they have to fall out of the workplace for caregiving responsibilities, then we're not putting money in their pocket. And if we're not putting money in their pocket, they're not putting money in the economy. Andrea Liebross: So, what do you think could be said in the lounge, we'll call it, that can't be said in the boardroom? Or do you think… Shelley Zalis: I say it all in the boardroom and in the lounge. But it's more about conscious leadership. I don't care if you're a man or if you're a woman, if you're in a position of power, use it. And provide the access. And create the transformation you want with intentional action. Everything is about intentionality. If you tell me there's unconscious bias. Andrea Liebross: Yup. Shelley Zalis: I'm gonna say you're conscious. If you use the word unconscious, you're conscious. Andrea Liebross: True, very true. Shelley Zalis: So, if you know that you're losing your best leaders to caregiving, then fix the problem. Everything is fixable. There's a solution to every problem. You just have to find it, you have to want it, and you have to make it possible. Andrea Liebross: So, women in leadership positions now, what… Do you think one of their most important missions is to bring more women into leadership? And… by doing that, create the pack, right? That's what's gonna happen if they bring more in. So… How, though, do they get past the conversations that are happening behind their back. Do you think it's just a matter of being louder? Do you think it's a matter of being more, like, that pack is a… obviously, you said there's power in the pack, that's the impact. Why are not more women bringing more women in? What do you think's getting in the way? Shelley Zalis: That it shouldn't be women bringing women in, it should be leaders bringing the best talent in. Andrea Liebross: Mmm. Shelley Zalis: You don't have the best talent, which, by the way, requires representation and reflection. Yes. The best products, the best companies evolve because of life experiences. And if we don't have those That diversity of lived experience represented and reflected In the boardroom, in the leadership suite, in the talent pool, you're gonna miss on making the best products. Right? And so, it really is about not women bringing women in. This is not a women's issue. We don't need male allies. We need leadership allies. We need the right language to drive the right change. We need the right corporate culture to create an environment that everyone feels seen, heard, can rise And have the opportunities, the access to, you know, go to the top. And so, if we keep thinking it's women to bring other women in, we will not get where we need to go. Andrea Liebross: That could… that could… that's maybe the mistake, in a sense, right? Shelley Zalis: I think so. You know, who's getting, leadership training? Women. Why are women getting leadership training? We're great leaders. That's already assuming we're not good leaders, and that we're supposed to follow in the men's footsteps, because they're not getting… they're all getting managerial training, maybe. management training, but when you hear, oh, we're gonna do a women's leadership thing, it's like. We don't do a male leadership thing! I got rid of the word empower because we don't talk about… we talk about female empowerment, we don't talk about male empowerment. Andrea Liebross: No, we don't, do we? Shelley Zalis: No! Andrea Liebross: Never hear that. Ever. You never hear that. Shelley Zalis: And we talk about male allies, it's already weakening a woman's position. Andrea Liebross: Right. Shelley Zalis: It's, it's… Andrea Liebross: From the start. Shelley Zalis: Charming, kiss me on my cheek and wake me from my sleep. No, we need leadership allies. Not male allies. We're already handing the keys to men by saying that. Andrea Liebross: Yes. Shelley Zalis: And men are great. It's not… and it's, it's like… We're putting the… division up. By doing that, stop doing that! Start using the right language that is… Open, and inclusive, and warm, and welcoming, and giving everyone the opportunities. Andrea Liebross: Alright, so is it fair to say, if we need conscious leaders, I mean, what do you think an unconscious leader looks like? Shelley Zalis: Look. Andrea Liebross: like? Shelley Zalis: Well, I make… I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that if you tell me you're unconscious, I'll make you conscious. Once you're conscious, you have a choice, do something or don't. Simple as that. And if you don't… You're consciously… Unconscious. Because it means you don't want to fix what needs to be fixed. You know, the thing that really infuriated me was I was invited to, one of the big sports things, and it was Title IX Celebration, and I was… it was during COVID… it was right after COVID, so it was a very small group, and it was the ESPYS, and… they… it was the Title IX anniversary, they were talking about Title IX, and Billie… I was sitting next to Billie Jean King, and I was sitting next to Martina, and I was sitting next to, Abby Wambach, and sitting next to Mia Hamm, like, legends. And it was such a proud moment, sitting there, seeing how much progress we made with equal pay and tennis and Billie Jean driving the change, and… It was just amazing, and it was 50 years. I go back home that night, and… I get a report on my, you know, tab thing. And it talked about how it's going to take another 132 years, or 130, I don't remember what the number was, 134 years to close the gender gap in the workplace and whatever. And… Tears came… I was looking in the mirror, and I was crying. Tears came down my eyes, and I said. This is a World Economic Forum report. That every leader receives. And the data hasn't changed. It's 130, 132, 134, you know, whatever. And I'm like, where will you be in 132 years? Where will your children be? Where will your grandchildren, great-grandchildren? Keep going on and on and on. And I thought, These leaders are sitting around a table. getting this report, and no one's blinking. We're talking about, you know, we can fix climate, we can fix hunger, we can fix… Really? In 50 years? First of all, that requires collective action across the universe. Andrea Liebross: Yes. Shelley Zalis: Fixing Closing the gender gap in the workplace is actually the only global goal that you can achieve in the lifetime of your leadership, because it's doable. And yet, we sit here, year after year, and they're all reading these reports as, oh! 10 or 13 years. No one's going to prioritize if it can't be done. Who's gonna take that on? And so I challenged it, and I said. We could close the gap in 5 years with intentionality, choice, and possibility. It's all doable, if you want it. And… That was that. And so, for me, an unconscious leader is someone That keeps reading that report. And accepting it, because they don't really want to prioritize it and fix it. And they want to focus on other things. And that's okay! Focus on… but don't… Andrea Liebross: What's interesting, the focus on other things, a lot of the things they're focusing on do still have… we don't know exactly how to do it. There's mystery out there. Shelley Zalis: There's no accountability. Those other things, fixing hunger and education and climate, there's… you can't hold yourself accountable for that. That requires a whole titanic shift of something. Andrea Liebross: Yes. Shelley Zalis: I think it's… it's… it's… God has to, you know, oversee that one. This one. is all possible. It is possible if you want it. And so an unconscious leader is someone who is very aware of What the situation is, and what can be done, but chooses not to. That's… It's conscious, though. I'm not giving anyone credit for it being unconscious. Andrea Liebross: 100%… I get that. That's… I love that. Alright, this is a great place to end. We can just wrap… that's like a perfect wrap-up, right there. Shelley Zalis: Okay, well, you're awesome, by the way. Thank you for having this conversation. I didn't think we were gonna go in any of those places, so… yay.
